Illegal Immigration Affecting Health Care

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13 Responses to Illegal Immigration Affecting Health Care

  1. Don Tabor says:

    Interesting.

    Of course, the problem is that hospitals are required to provide treatment for people with no insurance, and no means or intentions of paying, in the first place, whether illegal aliens or not.

    Why go to the expense of having insurance if you can’t be turned away?

  2. Britt Howard says:

    And why should a Goldman Sachs bother to invest prudently and give level of risk any concern? They are “too big to fail”. That and they were lined up to be a big player in trading Carbon Credits.

    Why shouldn’t a mortgage be given to an individual unable to make payments? The government will bail out the banker.

    To an extent, even the break up of “family” is encouraged. Divorce, never becoming married in the first place, even abandoning our children should we become victims of self-medication or just not feel like raising them. It has all become easier and people do make money off of it.

    The truth is the United States of America encourages everyone to be failures by enacting self-destructive policy and legal mandates.

    The time for America to wake up and support candidates favoring policies that make sustainable prosperity possible is now. We need to tell the government that we are ADULTS and don’t need the “Nanny State”.

    We’ve all been sold a “Free Lunch”, but the dirty secret is that somebody pays. In the end, it is America at large that pays. It is the American taxpayer struggling to make ends meet honestly that pays for that burden. It is future generations that will suffer should we stand idly by and do nothing.

    So, when we see our healthcare system evaporate and care being rationed, we can thank the policies of the current and past administrations as well as the American that chose to be a ward of the state and not bother to stand as men and women that look out for their inherent rights and liberty. After all, American Idol and where Lebron James is going is all that matters. (On that note, GO HEAT!)

  3. Delaware Bob says:

    I remember this very well. What happen to the State Illegal Immigration Law Florida was going to adopt after this testimony? Not only do the illegal aliens get the FREE healthcare, they get free schooling and a lot of costly social services due to the Anchor Baby…another thing that should be eliminated! Here are two other links to this FREE healthcare for the illegal aliens.

    http://www.kpho.com/video/18452473/index.html

    If this link don’t start right up, just refresh.

    And you have these left wing, bleeding heart activists say they are just here to feed their families. What a CROCK! They are here to rape the American system, from taking our jobs to sending BILLIONS out of this Country.

    All I keep hearing is comprehensive immigration reform, comprehensive immigration reform, comprehensive immigration reform. How about some comprehensive ENFORCEMENT reform to get the illegal aliens out of this country?

    • Len Rothman says:

      The illegal immigrant cannot take our jobs unless someone hires them.

      They cannot send “billions out of this country” unless someone pays them.

      Now, who do you think hires and pays them?

      You and I do. We demand cheap produce, cheap chicken, cheap construction costs, cheap landscaping, cheap nanny services, etc., etc.

      The employers fulfill those demands by hiring illegal immigrants who are willing and able to perform backbreaking and mundane labor for low pay and few employee rights or benefits.

      You want to get rid of 11-15 million people?

      OK, then put the employers in prison for a decade if they ever get caught hiring illegals. After all, it is tantamount to treason if you undermine our country by allowing illegals to “rape the American system”.

      Over a period of years, those immigrants will leave on their own when they cannot get work.

      We will only have to imprison a few CEO’s and business owners (others will catch on quickly) rather than millions of aliens.

      The big question is: are we willing to do that?

      Or do we really want the cheap labor more than we want secure borders?

      Those extra hospital costs, by the way, are part of the true cost of “cheap labor”.

      Chicken is not so cheap now, is it?

      • Britt Howard says:

        Whoa!! Len!! You make some valid points, but enough with the false attributions of blame in hiring illegal immigrants!

        “You and I”, hire no such illegal labor. Well, speak for yourself, Len. I don’t hire illegal aliens and neither do the overwhelming majority that see illegal immigration as a problem.

        Before I further give my opinions as to why you are just wrong for some of your comments, let me first point out where I think you are exactly right.

        1. Illegal Immigrants can not steal jobs by undercutting wages unless the company or person/s hiring them do so illegally.

        2. True enough, unless they get money from somewhere, how do they send billions out of the country. (theft and drug dealing aside, your point here is unassailable)

        3. Demand, and I would add, the neglect to maintain the rule of law, feeds the problem.

        4. Those that cater to this “demand” through illegal means, like any other CRIME, need to be prosecuted.

        Len, here’s where you are so dead wrong:

        1. Do I want cheap goods? Yes. Does that mean I am culpable in any manner or form? HELL NO!!! (I would be nicer about this, but you have effectively accused all of us of hiring illegals which is total BS.) Your line of logic could also be used to blame our fellow Americans for auto theft, presciption fraud, and slavery. A demand for goods at the cheapest possible price is NOT in and of itself, condoning criminal supply of said goods. I reject your premise completely. You insult all of us.

        2. Good to see you acknowledge that there IS a true COST involved. It completely backs my assertion that we are damaged by those taking advantage of illegal immigrants and their illegal presence here. It also backs my assertion that those entities that profit from human beings entrapped inside a “lesser status” (almost slavery) and our politicians that turn a blind eye and ignore the Rule of Law, have sold us a “Free Lunch”. A mythical “Free Lunch” on the backs of many people, not just from Mexico, that just want a better life. That cost is later passed back to us in higher costs elsewhere. Damages to our healthcare system being but one example. So we STILL end up paying more for those “cheap” goods anyway. Then you also have the ones that might benefit from the illegal drug trade.

        This nation was built by immigrants. In fact, I have consistently argued for streamlining legal immigration. I always argue for there to be more incentive to immigrate(from all countries, not just Mexico)legally than illegally. I agree that those that violate the law by hiring illegal immigrants should be prosecuted.

        Len you are right, certain individuals benefit from that illegal status. This ranges for the family with 2 jobs looking for a cheap nanny, to corporations and politicians. When you have multiple levels of people, somebody ultimately becomes empowered by taking advantage of the lesser status of the illegals, indentured servants, or slaves. Were this dynamic to be changed, some people would lose a lot of power. Precisley why a solution is so slow in coming. The “predator class” is fighting against finding a solution. That hurts both “Joe Sixpack”, legal immigrants, and illegal immigrants alike. Some politicians that are currently favored by those trafficing in illegals, seek to also take advantage of the “illegal status” by courting them and then opening a belated door to America in order to appear to be a savior and thus earn their votes and increase the political power. It empowers those currently profitting politically at their expense by ignoring and thwarting the Rule of Law and becoming accesories to their very exploitation. They don’t really want to help remove the illegal status,in fact, they hope to profit from it.

        It is a whole lot more expensive to smuggle illegal Chinese across a vast ocean and force them into lives of illegal labor and prostitution than it is to smuggle Mexicans across an invisible border line. Just goes to show how criminal, vile, evil, and …..profitable illegal labor exploitation can be. You just avoid the transportation costs of your “goods/people” by sticking to a nearby geographical area.

        So this faux, defense of Mexicans that immigrate illegally is NOT based on some humane arguement based on principle and freedom. It is about a near proximity of a mass of people ripe for exploitation on several levels. THAT IS THE UGLY TRUTH!!!

        The companys that hire illegally probably have budgeted out a short term loss of profit for a potential amnesty such as the one Ronald Reagan supported years back. Obviously, we still have this problem and amnesty without the Rule of Law and secure borders, does not solve the problem! It doesn’t solve the economic problems. It doesn’t solve the social problems. As long as you are just freeing one set of people to replace them with a new underclass to be preyed upon, it doesn’t solve the moral problems. The criminal company will just hire new “illegals” and have to wait until the amnesty granted immigrants no longer compete in the same labor market as the new underclass of illegal sub-citizens. After that, it is business as usual and we’ll still be debating this issue another 20 years into the future.

        Reagan’s well meaning failure is just proof that amnesty alone does not work. The fact that this is still an issue in 2010, just proves that we can’t trust our alleged representatives to shutdown illegal immigration if we allow amnesty first. THIS is why you hear insistance on the enforcement of law and the securing of borders FIRST before any attempt at legalizing those that broke the law to enter and live in the US in the first place.

        I think America is willing to “suck it up” and let families find a path to citizenship if it can be shown that the enabling of the predator class and the incentive to immigrate illegally has been stopped.

        This means:
        1.Shutting down the borders to illegal crossing
        2. Enabling legitimate businesses to demand adequate identification and not fear resulting lawsuits in some states.
        3. Prosecuting those that hire illegal labor.
        4.Convert this perverted “demand” from exploitation of an illegal status to steamlining legal immigration, guest worker programs, and accepting that some companies will have to outsource or use automation to cut expenses.
        5.It probably wouldn’t hurt to destroy all the drug cartel marijuana fields growing in our national parks. The drug trade is another example that takes advantage of both illegal immigration and illegal self-medication. Though not a priority of mine, it is an arguement for legalizing pot and removing the profit created by its illegal status.

        Len, let me specifically say that I don’t blame you personally or any of the other well meaning & good hearted people that take your position for the current mess we are in. The degree of misinformation and manipulation out there is gargantuan and it exists exactly because illegal labor exploitation is indeed so profitable. I just want you and others to know the real source of this evil. I want to stress that cutting the problem off at the root cause is the solution rather than ignoring law and forgiving the harm caused. Further, the rights of the entrapped illegals do not trump the rights to property or security of current citizens. Human rights are inherent, not “politically correct” and subject to arbitrary change.

        The only thing personal is my refutation that I am culpable for this evil. Especially since, I DON’T HIRE, or condone the hiring of illegal labor. I know there is no “Free Lunch”. As a Libertarian and a human being able to “walk in another man’s moccasins”, I do what I can to help find the solution.

        If the illegal labor trafficing is stopped, Natural Rights and the Rule of Law observed, we can eventually end up with a border that is nearly free and open. Indeed Freedom is the solution. Meanwhile, I don’t intend to surrender my freedoms just because you can point a sympathetic finger at something beyond our control. Well, not beyond the ballot box. That ballot box is where an informed voter can make the difference.

  4. Len Rothman says:

    Britt,

    I certainly did not mean to insult you and I think you may have taken too literally the phrase “…you and I do.”

    There are many jobs that the illegal aliens are involved in, but the facts are they are low cost and relatively low maintenance for the employer. As such, he can compete and drive down costs for certain goods and services that we, as consumers, both benefit from and would probably avoid if the prices went up again to reflect the true cost with honest labor.

    I am sure you don’t hire undocumented workers and I know I don’t either.

    But, if you had any home additions recently, did you personally check the legal status of your contractor’s employees, or his sub-contractor’s labor. Or did you select him from several bids among those whose quality fit your needs. And if all things are equal, price usually determines the choice.

    Did you ever buy anything from Walmart back in the days when it was discovered that the janitorial services contractor they hired for many of their stores were illegal immigrants? Did you continue buying when the facts were known?

    Did you, or any of your friends hook up to FIOS only to find out that the sub-contractor who worked for Verizon hired illegals to install the cables and had been doing so for years? Did you switch to Cox at that point?

    Tyson’s has been on the edge of raids on and off for years, yet most Americans still buy their chicken. Shouldn’t they stop buying from them if they can’t hire legal labor?

    It is not an insult, but a fact. We all benefit from the cheap labor and we would not want to see prices rise at the market, especially now that times are tough for many families. If we all stopped buying from those who hire illegal aliens, they would go out of business unless they change their hiring policies.

    It is like our energy problem. We complain about oil supplies from overseas and pollution from coal mining and burning, yet, we still drive huge vehicles and keep our thermostats too cool or too warm in 4000 sq. foot homes.

    We really don’t want to do anything that may cause a little sacrifice or change in lifestyle, even if that would greatly alleviate our problems.

    Heck, even when we went to war in two theaters, the only thing asked of us was to “go shopping”.

    That is why, Britt, I am saying that we need to look at ourselves first.

    As was said in Pogo, the comic strip, years ago. We have met the enemy and it is us.

    Now, before you take me to task, please realize that I know there are a lot of other factors involved in this problem, and both of us have touched on many of them.

    But the facts are that the illegals coming up from Mexico and Central America are sacrificing life, limb and savings for a dangerous journey because we pay them better than what they can expect at home. Period.

    And we do so illegally as employers, or, with tacit approval by our consumer choices.

    Your solutions #2,3 and 4 are really along the lines of what I am proposing: taking the profit out of hiring illegal aliens.

    It is like the drug problem. You take the enormous profit out of the trade, and it will reduce crime.

    Well, if we make it very expensive to hire illegals, the incentives to cross the border will fade away.

  5. Britt Howard says:

    About three years ago I was living in an apartment complex. I didn’t get FIOS, but the complex was having the needed wiring installed in all the apartments. The guy that did it in my apartment was of Carribean origin and had quite the accent. It was shortly after that when I heard about that illegal thing. Was he illegal? I don’t know, but he could have been,

    Sure consumer scorn can do a lot. Sometimes punishing the wrong group. Who do you hold responsible as a consumer? The contractor I would think unless it can be shown it was the intent of Verizon to force cuts that way.

    In any case, unless it gets enough attention, consumers will forget or at some point assume the problem was fixed and “Big Brother” government took care of us and sufficiently penalized those responsible.

    Can consumers play a role? Yes, and they do. Not everyone is like Al Gore. Some supplement their 4,000 ft+ homes with solar, geothermal, superior insulation, and other greener techs. Not everyone will sell themselves carbon credits. Additionally, back to the topic, some will go elsewhwere if they feel illegal labor is involved.

    Have I personally benefitted from illegal cheap labor. Yes, and no. I find it hard to believe that my grocery prices on something weren’t cheaper because of it. The competiton from illegal labor probably helps to keep domestic construction and landscaping prices down. Those cost savings might be passed down to the consumer level where I would indirectly benefit. I also own stock in my 401K. However, at the same time that I benefit to a minor degree from extra purchasing power, I get screwed in other ways as does America as a whole. Extra government spending, artificially tilted markets(which is always unhealthy), considerable damage to the healthcare system, the plague of immoral exploitation of other people etc.

    Other areas of the country are by far more directly affected by the traffic of illegal labor than the Virginia Beach area is. Even so, those markets being negatively affected and propped up by federal tax dollars, end up costing all of us. So again, no “Free Lunch” with them here, and the cost when they leave will also be balanced by reduction in costs elsewhere. Actual benefits are realized when legal immigrants come here and are not artificially burdened by an “illegal” status.

    That said, is it the consumer’s job to enforce the law? Umm….no. That is one of the big things that government is SUPPOSED to do. Enforce the law. Bad things happen when it doesn’t.

  6. Len Rothman says:

    Britt,

    No, you are right, it is not the consumers’ role to enforce the law, but every citizen has an obligation to report wrong doing. If you saw a burglary in progress at your neighbors house, you have a moral obligation to call the police.

    But, more interestingly is the idea that by avoiding businesses that provide cheap prices by using illegal labor (and we know that they are just forcing other expenditures by taxpayers for health, education and law enforcement), we would be using the economic incentive for a company to hire legal employees.

    And even though the short term financial incentive to the consumer is lower prices, a citizen, in my mind, has an obligation to do more than just be a dispassionate observer driven by economic incentives alone.

    You would be outraged if you saw a chemical company pouring waste into the Chesapeake Bay. You would benefit by paying them less for their product, yet if you ignored what you witnessed for the immediate economic advantage of low prices, you would be undermining other people of the access to clean water.
    So we should be willing to contact authorities and make sure that even though the prices may rise, a better solution for waste disposal is used in the future.

    The use of cheap, illegal labor for profit and accepting such by turning a blind eye is not unlike polluting the Bay.

    My point from the beginning is that we, as a nation, are outraged at the expenses for cheap labor (health care, education and so on), but not enough to clamp down hard on the employment of such labor.

    We expect government to raid businesses with regularity, when the consumers provide enough profit incentive to those same businesses to keep hiring low cost undocumented workers.

    We can’t have it both ways.

    Citizen groups are protesting that the government is not building a wall and flooding the border with thousands of troops, when they should be demanding that employers be punished as they are caught hiring illegal labor. And punished with enough vigor to discourage this practice.

    So, is it the consumers’ job to enforce the law. Not in the strictest sense of arrest and conviction, but in the citizens’ role to call the authorities when action is warranted and demand action against those who practices are the main cause of our problem.

  7. Robert Lawson says:

    “Illegal Immigration” is NOT a crime.
    The actual act of entering the U.S.A. without “permission” from the gov’t infringes on no one’s life, liberty, or property.

    No victim = no crime.

    Legalize free and open immigration (along with ending the Prohibition of Drugs) and much of the crime associated with so-called “illegal immigration” will disappear.

    It may be less safe with open borders (with terrorists and whatnot) but Liberty takes precedence over everything else for me. I’m of the same opinion as Thomas Jefferson: “I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than those attending too small a degree of it.”

  8. Britt Howard says:

    Illegal Immigration IS SO a crime. Is a victimless crime like speeding or trespassing preferable to arson, muggings,malicious wounding, and murder? Oh, well of course! BUT…….they are still crimes. Are all the victimless crimes legitimate and sensible? Lol, many are not and need to be over ruled. Kinda like Virginia’s Sodomy Law was when the Supreme Court overturned Texas’s sodomy law.

    That said, some acts while not necessarily involving a “victim”, SHOULD be illegal. Speeding is an example. Trespassing is another. Hmmm….let’s look at trespassing or even not breaking but, just entering.

    Should someone be allowed to enter your home while you are sleeping and take a break on your sofa before exiting and going about their business? No? Well, why not? Nobody got hurt!! There was no victim! He didn’t even turn on the TV and use electricity! How could Robert Lawson or many of my fellow Libertarians that favor illegal entry to the US, possibly object?

    Which brings us to immigration. Gee, just like some pro-illegal immigration people probably like the idea of regulating which freedom of travel person enters their home, I’m betting nations around the world have a profound interest in maintaining security of their people by being able to regulate who enters through their borders.

    Russians citizens carrying pistols legal in the US? Some say come on in. Terrorists with fertilizer and diesel fuel? That’s freedom of travel? Bringing a contageous disease across the border? Well, the government has no right to regulate your freedom to travel the globe…..according to that logic.

    What if you woke up and found some guy excercising his 2nd amendment on your sofa? You might feel insecure in your person and property, but the guy hasn’t stolen or hurt anyone. Same goes for immigration. I gues the intruder would need another crime like turning on your TV or lights. Illegal immigrants often cross private land and cause property damage. Some commit crime and drink and drive while running over nuns.

    Some foriegn countries have an interest in allowing their criminals to leave their land and travel to ours. Their problem becomes ours, but even criminals have Freedom of Travel and some of my fellow Libertarians ignore OUR freedom in order to bend over backwards and try to afford a foreigner something which doesn’t belong to them.

    What is the function of government? To protect the individual from force and fraud. Everything within our border is a resource. Just as I can’t graze my cattle on your land without your permission (you and your cows weren’t hurt), I can’t enter your home unannounced and drink out of you kitchen faucet. Furthermore, additional people place additional burdens on local resources just by being there. When you compete for limited resources, the free market will reflect that by increasing the cost. Take another look at that video in this article! You really think there are no victims?

    We pay!! We ARE damaged by illegal immogration. How many illegal immigrants are in our jails? We can’t regulate entry to the US? Really?

    Just as we Libertarians gripe about the lack of respect for our property rights when they confiscate our earnings through taxes, illegal immigrants tax our resources too. Nuns get run over, native landscapers and papers have a hard time competing with lower costs of people that can’t do business legally, and hospitals go bankrupt and shut down. There are no victims? Really?

    Freedom has eroded by increments over the years. If we even get it back it will also doubtlessly be in increments. I would love to be a purist and insist on nothing, but perfection. However, I would rather live to fight for freedom tommorrow than starve on principle and die today. Is our socialsitic policies part of the problem? YES! Change THAT before you set up a free border. I refuse to encourage the theft of my property rights(taxpayer dollars) just so you can sit in your ivory tower and cry about the free travel of foreigners.
    Government is a contract among people. part of that contract is to protect the members and their resources. It is time that OUR government live up to that contract and enforce the border and immigration LAW.

  9. Robert Lawson says:

    Your argument goes over the usual nationalist/collectivist/conservative fallacies.

    Private property is one thing. I own that. It is entirely consistent with libertarianism to prevent whoever I want to from coming on my land. The government doesn’t OWN the country. If someone is on public land they are not harming anyone. PUBLIC VS PRIVATE -> THERE’S A DIFFERENCE! If you can’t do something as simple as differentiate between the two types of property then you should not be commenting on politics at all, period.
    Immigrants lowering prices (thus giving more buying power to consumers)is not “harm,” that is the FREE MARKET. A free market means the freedom to work no matter who you are.

    Any and all of the problems you listed “foreigners” as causing can result from any other group that is already here in this country. Pointing to “foreigners” as the root and branch, bag and baggage of all those problems is a symptom of the WORSE kind of collectivisms : nationalism and racism. Those ideologies have NO PLACE in the individualistic Libertarian Movement.

    Apparently the Tidewater Conservatarian Party needs to bone up on their Libertarianism. Thanfully the Foundation for Economic Education has stayed consistently libertarian and not given into protectionism/nationalism like the TLP seems to have.
    http://www.thefreemanonline.org/columns/the-benefits-of-immigration/

    http://www.thefreemanonline.org/featured/coming-to-america-the-benefits-of-open-immigration/

    • Don Tabor says:

      Robert,

      Were you and I to be involved in a war, I would hope you would be on the other side.

      You have far too great a tendency to shoot those closest to you instead of focusing on your real enemies.

  10. Britt Howard says:

    Wow, Bobby, you really are going all out on the “holier than thou” pompous purism aren’t you?

    You know what your problem is? I don’t agree with you. That is your problem. So, rather than submit an arguement, you throw ad hominem and tell me how stupid I am for not knowing the difference between public and private, let me know just how unlibertarian I am, and call me all sorts of names. Most of them far from true.

    Nationalist? To an extent I am. Only because I understand the role of government. To protect the individual from force and fraud. Conservative? A fiscal conservative , yes. On most social issues, I am fairly Libertarian, but I don’t think a free & open border is feasible at this point until the country changes a bit. Ideally, I would prefer an open border and like for “foreigners” to come in as they wish. You take the word “foreigner” and twist it into some xenophobic racist label. Bobby, you have met me at the TLP and I am sure there are a few issues we share, but you don’t know what is in my heart, so you should just save the xenophobic name calling and subtle race baiting.

    Face it, you are a bit more anarchist and probably Rothbardian. I won’t insult you for that, if that is the case. You see, I understand there is more than one branch of the Libertarian Party as with ANY party. I don’t think less of you because you disagree. I wouldn’t dream of questioning YOUR intelligence or right to free speech on politics! YOU are the one going all elitist. I am too stupid to step up to the holy ground of politics. You made that clear.

    The other parties have groups that fellow members disagree with on some key issues. The LP is no exception. I welcome all views in the LP. Rothbardian, Constitutional conservatives, to freemarket refugees of major parties.

    You on the other hand, seem personally affronted at seeing views that don’t mirror your own.

    I am not a collectivist, I am an individualist. I don’t take oaths of obedience to party. One of the reasons I left the GOP LOOOONNG ago. I do understand the function of government. Part of that is to protect shared resources that are parcel to a contract of commerce and protection of individual liberty. Liberty which includes PRIVATE property as well as public property that we all have a stake in.
    I don’t own the river. The government doesn’t own the river, but if I dump poison into it, I damage others. I damage private land, industries like fishing, possibly endanger people. Therefore, even though I nor the govt. own the river, I must be held responsible.

    Just because you didn’t get, or agree to, the analogy when I was comparing tresspassing on private property to unlawful trespass by non-citizens from where ever, doesn’t mean I don’t understand there is a difference between public and private. I tried to explain to you the reasons to controll a country’s borders, just as an individual would wish to control theirs.

    No Bobby, I don’t think the government owns land. I don’t think the government has rights, either. However, the government is a social and commerical contract. I won’t insult you by insisting you can’t tell the difference bewtween collectivism and a commercial contract for example where several companies or individuals have a COLLECTIVE interest.

    I understand that some Libertarians don’t even like the idea of a collectively shared military, police, or fire. They tend to go for private armies,fire,police, etc. If you are in that category, I can understand why you would disagree, but not why you are getting so insulting and resorting to name calling. I believe that there is a place in the Free Market for pooling of resources. The fact is, in order to pool them, you have to agree to collective stakes. Contracts. There is that common defense thing in our founding documents. How do you enforce a constitution without some sort of entity to do so?

    Are there many illegals that get sucked in by predatory business WISHING to take advantage of someone’s illegal status and willingness to accept less? Yes. There are many illegal immigrants that just want a better life. As a consequence of allowing them illegal entry, however, we open the door also to thugs, welfare seekers, drug cartels taking advantage of our idiotic drug war, and have hospitals bankrupted. Those unnecessarily bankrupted hospitals are damaged as a corporation, the employees are damaged with the loss of their jobs, and everyone nearby is damaged by the loss of nearby medical care.

    Immigrants undercutting wages or prices is a good thing. We agree there. What I don’t agree with is ILLEGAL immigrants that are preyed upon by corporate pirates and distort the free market with a poison of an illegal class of people. Immigrants are a natural occurance in a free market. Illegal ones are not.

    Although it likely won’t ease your disgust for my naive view of the world, I am for a broadening of legal entry. From all areas around the globe. I am also in favor of Guest Worker programs where people could cross the border legally and repeatedly.

    That is called a legal access to the social/commecial contract bewteen the citizens of the the USA. Government is just a tool of the citizens to ensure equitable(so we like to hope)use of shared resources. Please don’t insinuate that I favor communism or socialism. I see a difference between government ownership of the economy and government being the tool to as equitably as possible, share resources in commerce, and protect individual liberty.

    I’m not going to bother following your links after you just insulted me. Perhaps others will. That is their freedom to do so. However, you don’t need to sell me on the value of immigration. I believe in it. I just believe that citizens rights under the contract of government come first. I also believe in the rule of law. Without the rule of law, you can’t enforce the Constitution because some totalitarian will come along and decide which part of a perverted “living breathing” document they WANT to enforce…..and enforce selectively.

    You disagree with the law? Change it! Don’t just ignore it and create a resource war along side the drug war. How about giving more incentive to immigrate legally and allow for greater numbers to do so? Why not that than granting amnesty and then allowing predatory businesses to decend on the new underclass of illegals after you forgive the last wave?

    Reagan tried the amnesty thing. It didn’t work. We still have the same problem. Amnesty is the ignoring the rule of law. It sets a precedent for ignoring the rule of law when it becomes inconvenient. That can lead to mob rule and an empty constitution.

    I can agree to disagree, without calling you stupid, or claiming that you are not a Libertarian. Why can’t you?

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