I just heard on WAVY channel 10 that Frederick was given the maximum sentence of ten years.
None of us are safe in our homes if this stands.
The reasoning for this sentence in the absence of a conviction on the firearms charge makes no sense at all.
More as information becomes available.
Tidewater Liberty 
I agree. What reasons would a judge have for giving a lesser sentence and why does it take 3 months to issue final sentence?
“What reasons would a judge have for giving a lesser sentence”
Lack of prior criminal record for one.
Doc,
Are you going to go before City Council, perhaps ask for a meeting with the City Manager and/or Chief to address your concerns?
CEH, Yes, we will be voting on it this Saturday morning, but the TLP has been waiting for the resolution of this trial to ask City Council for a Civilian Revue of the incident and procedures
Sad, sorry state of affairs. Not unexpected though.
I’m gonna go light up. When they break down my door they best have done some research. I was a 54B, they better bring MOPP gear or I’ll be the only one walking out.
ktc2, the perimeter team will get you.
I just posted on Pilot Online. I no longer trust the police. When/how/what must be done to group together as citizens and demand a complete and thorough (external) review of this incident?
As I was driving home from work tonight before I found out about the sentence, I was thinking about that botched raid in SoNo a month before this incident, when the police entered the wrong home looking for the killer of the 3 year old girl. That could be any of us. I don’t want it to be me. And the real shame is that it’s all regarding what resulted in a drug conviction of 30 days.
CEH,
Yeah, I guess if I come out 🙂
I’m currently designing a dome house with steel rod reinforced concrete walls/ceiling, one entrance on the ground floor which will be a steel fire door and steel doorframe. I’m planning a solid concrete and steel wall directly in front of the door to make swinging any kind of battering ram impossible.
I expect their next tactic would be to send in a team with haz mat gear, which would be corroded with holes by some corrosive liquid through my specially designed sprinkler system. Leaving them unprotected.
After that I guess I’d have to blow the whole thing up and escape through a secret tunnel to China.
LOL. Yes, I’m kidding of course.
Won’t this be appealed? Isn’t that part of the game?
If you were a judge sentenceing a man for something, would you be potentially predjudiced knowing that the convicted had an army of supporters that might be there for him if he were to get out early? Would you fear that the convicted might feel rewarded after a light sentence? Would you be tempted to increase the time more toward the max to compensate for that? There is also the “time served factor”.
CEH, no LE nor KTC2 will die. Somebody will get a damn clue and pick him up in fashion in which RF SHOULD have been picked up.
Britt,
We can only hope our LE will get a clue. Sadly, I think they enjoy playing soldier too much.
As to Mr. Frederick, our “justice” system is an abyssmal mockery of justice. He is just the latest victim and now the CPD (and their brothers all over our once free nation) will now set about finding the next, and the next, and the next . . .
Is it time for another riot?
If so can we direct this one at the SOBs responsible and not innocent bystanders please?
Think about it, when was the last time you saw “To Protect and Serve” on a PD vehicle? Fact is now days I trust a seasoned criminal more than I do the PD. A seasoned criminal is just going to rob you and go along his way. Most of the PD now days treat normal Joe Citizen with jack boot thug techniques and disrespect every citizen they come in contact with. There very FEW honorable police this day and time. I notice how they drive everyday. Rolling through or driving through red lights and stop signs with no intent to stop. Cutting off cars diving down the road. No turn signals. Speeding. Illegally parked. Parking in a handicap space. These are some of the risky habits I see of the PD everyday. As a matter of fact CPD seems to have a habit of cutting across the median strip of the interstate to catch a speeder or park in the opposing direction to shoot radar. This puts the rest of the motorist at risk when they pull off the Dukes of Hazards driving technique to just to catch a car going a few miles over the speed limit. Think about it. It could have very easily had been that these jack boots killed RF just for a misdemeanor violation. What if they had broken into the wrong house? How many times has that happened?
Dr. Tabor, is there a way for the Chesapeake citizens to get involved as well, or do you feel confident that the TLP will be a “representative” of the citizens?
Beth – I do not know what the strategy will be as yet, but we can use all the support we can get. I will post a call to action here after our meeting this Saturday morning.
Anyone who wishes to attend our meetings is welcome. Our meetings are open to all. We meet on the First and Third Saturday morning of each month a the Atlanta Bread Company near Lynnhaven Mall. Details at TidewaterLP.com
K2…I’m an 0321 with 8026 creds and some history as all three of the following: 5711, 5812, and 2112. I know how to use flex linear. You’re door is coming down…and we’re all coming in. Put the j in the soda can and get down on the ground face first with your hands behind your head.
It is so freaking bizarre to type what I just wrote.
-bear
I guess the detective was right, you can’t shoot through a door blindly. I see honey buns. On a serious note. It is not over.
LOL.
Sorry your flex linear wont sever more than 35 mm of steel. My door is SOLID BABY with vault like solid steel latches that go into 6 inches into the reinforced concrete wall.
Try again?
I can always improve my design!
Somehow, courts need to make clear that the requirement that police “knock and announce” is not met by pro forma “announcements” that are made without a reasonable effort to be heard. IMHO, the world would be a much better place if 10% of cops who forced entry in the absence of exigent circumstances, without having first made bona fide efforts to demonstrate their identity and legitimacy, were shot dead on the spot.
I say that not as someone who wants cops dead, but rather as someone who recognizes that (1) such behavior by the populace may be the only way to make cops actually behave as the Constitution requires, and (2) if it were accepted that cops who failed to knock and announce in civilized fashion may be shot dead, very few cops would fail that requirement.
Maybe a moat full of rabid alligators with AIDS?
we’re coming ~in~ your roof…and we’re all ~leaving~ out your door 🙂 You’ll be opening it for us.
-bear
Did RF shoot through a door blindly…or did he see a busted out lower panel with an armed intruder trying to squeeze through the hole?
Did he hit Shiver’s first or did his shot penetrate a door first? Who was there? Was that answered?
-bear
I’m so disappointed in the jury’s sentencing recommendation. I was hoping that finding him not guilty on the gun charge would lead to a 1 year sentence-basically releasing him with time already served. I can still hope and pray that the judge will show mercy.
Bear, I read that RF was shooting at the hand reaching though the knocked out door panel. He missed the hand and went though the hole where the CPD made by knocking out the panel. If he had hit the door, no one would have been injured much less killed. Simple case of home owner protecting his home from a home invasion.
bear, I really believe that the question of what was coming through the door from the outside was never answered/proved. Testimony and the logistics of the positions of the officers, not to mention that they have been trained not to reach through an opening, leaves me to believe that RF did not see what he thought he saw. Personally, I don’t think anyone was reaching through. If you are in fear for your life, it’s hard to say what he thought he saw. Well, my opinion, anyway.
Thanks Dr. Tabor, I’ll see what I can do.
HOPEFULLY: Some more info of what the jury was given to consider will come out…Other than what we saw, that will explain why this penalty was imposed.
The CPD paid for the false information on RF.Then put on their super tough tactical gear, did a surprise “practice” and lost one of their own.One skinny kid with a pea shooter made it all worthless.That detective should be in jail for capital murder.The informant/thief should be with him.God bless Shivers and his family,RF his family and also the CPD and you good people.
Bigmike-
There is no more ‘To serve and protect’- it was changed ‘To serve and collect’. They serve stupid drug warrants to collect federal grant money. They serve unreasonable traffic tickets to collect revenue for their promotions and raises. They serve up drunk driving check points to collect federal grant money and to issue nitpicking tickets, for more revenue.
The one thing not served: Justice. that just doesn’t pay.
Anyone who thinks the police are our friends are not very attentive.
//Testimony and the logistics of the positions of the officers, not to mention that they have been trained not to reach through an opening, leaves me to believe that RF did not see what he thought he saw.//
Most likely, he mistook the end of the battering ram for someone reaching in to operate the lock. Regardless, he correctly believed that his home was being invaded by one or more people who intended to subdue him or worse, and that entry was imminent. He fired his weapon so as to hit one of the invaders. Absolutely 100% righteous shoot, IMHO.
If legislators want to make both cops and the public safer, they should pass legislation to make explicit that cops who break into an occupied dwelling in unreasonable fashion may be regarded as burglars (the Constitution already makes clear that unreasonable searches and seizures are illegitimate, but legislation would help).
An entry shall be presumed unreasonable unless cops make a bona fide effort to demonstrate their identity and legitimacy in such a way that a reasonable person could verify both; any effort by cops to conceal their identity shall be construed as a sign that they were not making a bona fide effort to demonstrate it.
Further, cops are required to minimize, to the extent practical, risk to people’s lives and damage to their property. Actions by cops which gratuitously endanger people or damage their property shall be presumed unreasonable.
In any criminal or civil trial in which questions arise surrounding the “reasonableness” of a search or seizure, the adverse party to such procedure shall have the right to have all matters of fact related to that reasonableness determined by a jury.
The legislation should make clear that while people are not particularly encouraged to shoot cops who are behaving in unreasonable fashion, cops would be put on notice that engaging in unreasonable action will forfeit all right to self-defense and likely get them killed.
Such legislation would IMHO not result in cops getting shot, but rather cause them to stop acting in such a fashion that they deserve to get shot.
Bigmike said – Simple case of home owner protecting his home from a home invasion.
In VA you can not protect property, only life. And he was a tad bit early to have been (legal def.) in fear for his life. I believe he was convicted on the proper charge. Only time will tell how much time he will actually have to serve. I know it’s not a popular concept, but it is the law. He is now (most likely) going to face a civil suit for wrongful death.
Dr. Tabor and John Wilburn – Thank you for all your time and efforts in reporting the court proceedings for us. BZ
Ktc2 – You fuckin chem pussy. Thanks for the intel. 16 years 0317, formerly 8541. Look it up. You’ll never know it happened.
Here’s a funny joke I heard today.
What’s the difference between RF and a liberfarian? Liberfarians choose to get fucked in the ass.
Hey Ryan, have fun in the big house.
I’m looking forward to 07/2016.
Until then,
Jack
“Hey Ryan, have fun in the big house.
I’m looking forward to 07/2016.”
Is that a threat?
Supercat, I agree with everything you say except for your last five words. I don’t blame these detectives who participated in the search warrant (read RAID); after all they were “doing their job”. I don’t think they acted in such a fashion that they “deserve” to get shot. Rather, they were put into a situation where breaking a door down will put them, involuntarily, into a dangerous situation. I truly believe that these officers followed whatever protocol they were taught. My biggest issue is that the search warrant was obtained on a lack of evidence and IMHO, illegally. They say that shit rolls downhill, but the shit has to start at the top. This is where the investigation should begin.
My heart breaks over Jarrod Shivers’ death, but it could have been soooo avoided.
Get over it Jack,
Marines sole purpose is to die in a loud grotesque military manner so the army guys can use their corpses as cover and concealment. 😉
Now, when I pop that VX lets see if you can hide from it like I can from a sniper.
Oh, and don’t worry Jack. When I walk away and find you laying there in your own excrement and doing the funky chicken nerve agent dance I’ll hit you up with some atropine and 2 pam chloride.
“deserve to get shot.”……..? Wrong as they (whoever they actually is) were,no cop deserves to get shot for doing their job with good intentions.Shivers as well as most in that group didn’t know all of the details now disclosed.Didn’t most think they were getting a bad guy off the street?
Im sure that within rock throwing distance you could hit 3 meth labs,10 Craigs list “hotties” and 17 people with warrants already issued.Apparently the CI/LE partnership corruption is everywhere.Seems more like a racket than anything. This is clearly negligent,lazy police work from some that cost the community big time.
I don’t know how much of RF’s personal life came out in the trial,but the kid had a tragic life before any of this ever happened.Hopefully the judge will find this verdict useless as was pointed out earlier and come up with a fair sentence.
In my opinion with the understanding of the judicial system and the laws in Virginia the Jury found him guilty of the correct charge. I don’t know what i think about giving him the maximum sentence as the jury did hand down. But I do believe that as a gun owner you are responsible for all actions you take with your weapon. He decided to fire blindly through a door to protect his property (which is illegal in Va) which because of his illegal act he killed someone. With that he was eligible for the 10 years. But with no prior convictions for violent offenses and what not I could see myself giving him 5 to 7 years for his act.
Now those that do not agree with the verdict need to take steps necessary to change the laws on the land and not attempt to villianize the police that were doing the job they have been assigned by us the people. If we don’t agree with it then we need to take the steps necessary to make the changes we want. I also think that a thorough investigation into the matter of the raid be conducted to ensure more of our police officers are not killed.
As for the case I think this shows in our legal system you can get a fair trial even if you kill a law enforcement agent.
It’s kind of funny reading all these jacked up facts. Hey Beth it was a 1 yr old that was killed and the CPD proved he had been their moments before they arrived. He just snuck out too quick. So yeah they went in and gassed the crap out of it to make sure a murderer wasn’t in there shooting. I don’t think that’s so crazy.
These armchair police seem to think the CPD has a crystal ball and knows how things will always turn out. You have to go with what you know at the time. And people are bashing the CPD then asking. “was it ever answered if he shot through the door” If you don’t know that don’t bash anyone because you haven’t been listening to SHIT! You insult the entire debate by jumping in with no facts. And Doc your boy John screws everything up. You need a new wingman he’s what people call a SOUP SANDWICH.
Supercat, I agree with everything you say except for your last five words. I don’t blame these detectives who participated in the search warrant (read RAID); after all they were “doing their job”.
Not the best word choice; perhaps I should have said “should expect to get shot”, in the sense that somebody who covers himself in non-reflective black velvet and crosses a busy freeway at night should expect to get hit by a car.
I will say, however, that I do blame the detectives and think some of them should be prosecuted. Their job was to serve warrants in reasonable fashion. Unreasonable searches and seizures of free people’s property are illegitimate, warrant or no. Do you believe the search as planned and conducted was reasonable? I would consider it patently unreasonable, meaning the participants were not “doing their job”.
Based on the cops’ own descriptions of their actions, I see no reason to believe they had any intention of making Mr. Frederick aware that they were cops prior to entry. Sure, they had someone with a feeble voice make an announcement so ineffectively that even people who were listening for it couldn’t hear it. Further, they placed their marked cars out of sight and put an unmarked van outside the house.
The only explanations I can figure for the cops’ actions are either:
-1- The cops are too incredibly stupid to be trusted in polite society, much less armed, or
-2- The cops would rather bash their way into a person’s house than have the person open the door to them.
I really don’t see how the cops’ behavior in this case fits with any reasonable definition of the cops’ actual duties. What am I missing?
Hey Jones…what’s the answer? He shot ~through a door~ but hit only Shivers with a fatal shot? What a joke these fucking keystone cops are. How come they didn’t know? No grow op, up everyday early, in bed early. Legally owned handgun. Not climate controlled detached garage off grow season?
I know a cop is dead, I know enough to bash. Get it through your skulls men. The tide is changing. It’s coming to a head. Get rid of your scum and vermin, and start becoming proud respected public servants and wield your extraordinary powers responsibly.
Protect and serve, don’t harass and extort.
Aren’t cop killers somewhat revered in the joint? That’ll turn out a productive respectable member of society in 5-7 years. Or is it the COs that’ll take care of business? Raping an inmate.
What a complete farse and tragedy.
no cop deserves to get shot for doing their job with good intentions.Shivers as well as most in that group didn’t know all of the details now disclosed.
Do you think that Shivers had any reason to believe that an announcement was made and understood by anyone inside the dwelling? Did he have any reason to believe that all reasonable efforts had been made to ensure that the people inside knew the door was being bashed by police?
I’m sorry for Mrs. Shivers, that her husband like many cops seemed to have had a certain amount of common sense trained out of him, but that’s not Mr. Frederick’s fault. Mr. Shivers should have recognized that anyone, regardless of class or station, who breaks into an occupied dwelling must make all reasonable efforts to identify himself or risk being shot. Mr. Shivers should have refused to go toward the house until he had reason to believe that either contact had been made, or that reasonable efforts had been exhausted. He took a really stupid gamble with his life. He lost.
He decided to fire blindly through a door to protect his property (which is illegal in Va) which because of his illegal act he killed someone.
Of all the times that someone’s door is broken in while they are conspicuously at home, in what percentage does an intruder intend to sit down for a friendly cup of coffee with the occupant while an accomplice walks off with his stuff? One percent? 0.1%? Any?
RF believed correctly that there were people violently breaking into his home who intended to subdue him or worse, and that the people breaking in had not given him any reason to think they had any legitimate reason to be there. How could RF not have reasonably believed himself to be in personal danger?
The defense was in a bind in this case because a strategy to maximize the chance for outright acquittal would have run the risk of alienating some jurors, leading to a murder verdict. From a purely factual standpoint, RF should have had an absolutely solid case for acquittal:
-1- He didn’t know the particulars of the people outside the door, but he had identified them well enough to reasonably believe that he was in imminent danger from them.
-2- The cops don’t seem to have really been trying to make RF aware there were police outside until after the shooting. That RF didn’t know there were police outside is entirely the fault of the police who decided–for whatever reason–to conceal the fact. Some jurors might react badly to any accusations against the police, but I can’t see any fact-based rebuttal for this point.
If I were the defense attorney, I’d probably have focused on these points, but in such a way as to minimize any accusatory tone. For example, I would have regarded as unfortunate the fact that the person making the announcement had such a feeble voice, and that nobody else took the initiative to use a megaphone or at least yell louder. While it may not clear exactly which officer should have taken such initiative, a homeowner shouldn’t have to expect that his home might be broken into by a bunch of cops who for whatever reason can’t manage to identify themselves loudly and clearly.
While all of you are deciding to blow each other up,can someone try and answer this question. If the jury convicted RF on Manslaughter, which is a felony correct. RF used a firearm to commit the crime, correct. Then why was the charge use of firearm dismissed. Was it because of the wording in the original charge?
Price – That question occurred to me as well. The Statute is VA. Code 18.2-53.1 and manslaughter is not one of the many felonies listed in the act, though many lesser felonies are.
10 years? Well, what do you expect from a bunch of people that are not smart enough to get out of jury duty?
Shooting through a MASSIVE hole in your door at either an arm or a battering ram would be the direct result of of an imminent intrusion INTO your home! Shooting at either by fact an arm or object through such is indeed totally self defense! FACT, RF was shooting at something that CROSSED his threshold.
CROSSED his threshold! Something did!
Remember that we are talking about movie lighting here either, we do not know exactly what level of light was in existence at the time.
Come on, he was about to fall asleep, the dogs were going nuts, his residence had recently been broken into, and possibly there had ensued a verbal confrontation with the CI/fucking thief/bugler/paid police employee, which probably, if happened, included threats and COUNTER threats. In a quick thinking state of mind, no doubt it was that idiot Steve returning. (as he said he would get even or surpass his efforts).
The jury seems to be ill equipped as many of us thought any typical jury would be. Lame and without a single self thinking person on board. But such is the reality of our entire nation today.
They totally throw out the prosecutors case, then they recommend to sentence the defendant to the max! WTF is with that?
Had the jury been forced to decide between acquittal and capitol murder, Ryan would be a free man tonight. But such is something the judge needs to think about. I’m sure she is, at least in part, a decent person that can determine that Ryan has done enough time for whatever his personal errors were a year ago.
What is too bad is that the prosecutor can’t be punished in some manner for the repugnant case he pushed! That the CPD can’t be displayed as the thugs they seem to be. No I do not care that they did 100 or even a thousand similar raids without the death of a cop. What matters is that as a direct result of the DPD outlines/procedures, an officer was killed.
Despite all the tears flowing in the courtroom, Jarrod has the appearance of and apparently the aggressiveness deemed popular by many in LE. Designed appearance to intimidate all he came in contact with! According to his record, it was apparently working for him, all the way to catching a bullet aimed at an arm in an open area of a different built door, blasted open by his fellow officers.
Jailhouse/professional witnesses….. NEVER should one be taken even with salt! Lying fucks at best! Any side using them should as well be called what they are. Worthless! They and any statement they make should be held in the same content as any of those they put forth in such a manner.
No it’s too bad the judge allowed a deviation from the initial charge to happen. Though, in the end it did give the lame jury something to convict on, seems the defense requested such and such was denied during trial, then the total menu of potential charges was offered up for the jury. (after all, some badge got like real dead so hopefully this bunch will convict on something). Ebert had to be jumping for joy at such as the moment! (If such was pre-ordained to happen, then the judge is at fault for not declaring such at begining of trial). Just offered IMHO.
BTW; If Steven had been paid for informant work, or any work in the past and had some sort of signed agreement with CPD, then what ever he did, authorized or not, falls within his contractual agreement. Anything outside of such should be held as an individual criminal act and prosecuted with special zeal, as at the time he was acting as a paid employee/representative of the CPD.
But then a CI is but a budding potential LE placement!
Your man Wilburn got it wrong. RF was found Not Guilty of Use of a Firearm in the Commission of a Murder. I too was in the courtroom. He wasn’t found guilty of a “murder” so he could not be found guilty of the use of the firearm in the commission of a murder. As you said, manslaughter is not among the list of felonies in the charge of Use of a Firearm in the Commission of a Felony but that is not the charge as it was read in court.
If we REALLY want the CPD to use practice settings and methods for “Practice Raids” and not perform sloppy overkill on an easy real life pick up…..
If we want a CPD that performs operations in the safest manner possible for PD and fellow citizens..
If we really want a CPD that becomes more disciplined and structured and not crossing ethical/legal lines…
If we really want a CPD that the police and citizens can be proud of…..
Can we not condemn what happened and what caused it to happen without bashing the police in general?
Won’t it be easier to insist on change in the CPD by enlisting the support of LE that prefer a more professional execution of police action? Most LE are not Special Op wannabes. Many chose the profession to yes, “Protect and Serve” and to make a difference.
If you disagreed with CPD policy in the past, this tragedy will be the perfect opportunity to insist on reform. However, you do that best by siding with responsible LE and isolating the problems. If we continue to bash in general terms, we will simply force the “good apples” to rot because we insist on putting them in the same basket as the bad ones.
To me this is about protecting life and liberty of the citizens but, that also means including LE. This is about protecting RFs of the world but, also protecting future Shivers from sloppy supervision and review. When RF’s life was ruined, we lost. When Shivers died, we lost. LE or Joe Citizen, you lost.
We all will now have an opportunity to really take proactive action to fix this and prevent it from happening in the future. That would mean sides favoring the CPD or RF ALL would come out winners.
If a Commonwealth Attorney from another city can speak out on the professional informant’s lack of credibility, is it so hard to concieve that there are “good guys” out there and they need our support?
Deb,
So you can kill a person “in the heat of the moment”, but niot be held accountable for the means you used to kill that person. RF hit the wrong target, if you read what TC stated above we can just shot at “something” crossing the threshold of the front door. I hope TC is not advising to just shoot at something. Hopefully, TC just misstated their point.
TC as for the witnesses, RF made Wright a witness when they smoke marijuana together, RF showed Wright his grow operation and RF gave Wright some marijuana.
TC despite your elitest rant, I believe the Jury was very attentive and put in a very difficult situation and case. Secondly despite what many of you may wish, the self-defense argument has nothing to do with anyone or anything crossing any “threshold”. Self defense is being put into a situation where a “reasonable person” would be in fear of immenent serious bodily harm or death. The problem here is that he was inside and no one else was inside with him. He had time to wait and identify what was going on. If he’d of waited 1-2 more seconds the police would have legally entered, he would have hopefully dropped his gun and no one would be dead. Why are none of you putting ANY responsibility on the gun toting marijuana grower?? We are responsible for our actions in this world!!
TC your comments of how Det. Shivers “appearance of and apparently the aggressiveness deemed popular by LE” Give me a break he didn’t seem so aggressive in the pictures of him holding his kids or with his wife and parents at his graduation. Your assessment of the Jury as “lame” is just as biased and skewed. You are the quintesential blowhard. Lamenting about how everyone should have done things and in your self-righteous BS opinion everyone should be fired or sued.
DEB –
The Charge that was given to the Jury in the Instructions was “Use of a Firearm in the Commission of a Felony. The criteria as defined by the judge was that the prosecution;
1)Must prove that a Firearm was used,
2)Must prove that a Felony was committed.
You really need to get a life…
Price,
It seems that everyone who is clamoring for RF’s head is so sure that he knew, or should have known, that his life was not in danger when the door panel exploded inward. That his fear was misplaced and he should have shown some restraint until those who were invading his home came in and showed their ID’s.
In your mind, is there any cause for restraint on the police to not break in until RF had a chance to ask “who’s there?”. After all, that is what they wanted, according to testimony. Particularly when the only evidence was dubious and not checked out.
According to the police, someone in the assault team yelled “eightball” for no other reason than they thought that RF now knew they were at the door.
Well, folks, wasn’t that the point of the knock and announce, however wishy washy the announce was?
I think a battering ram coming through the door at night is certainly cause enough to belief one’s life was in serious danger.
Sorry, I was directing my comment towards “Jones”.
I guess I reacted too quickly.
Len,
I have never called for his head or the Capital Murder charge. My question was about how or why the jury could convict on felony murder charge ,but not convict on the use a firarm during a felony. I read Wilburn’s post and if correct #1 and 2 were proven.
As for RF, we will never know what he was thinking that night. As for the police restraint to wait until RF could ask who is it, that would have been great in a TV world. Let’s not get into the what if’s. However, as a citizen it is OK to ask legitmate questions. I want to just focus on the original question about the jury.
Price, Though the charge is called Use of a Firearm in the Commission of a Felony, the actual law, VA. Code 18.2-53.1, does not include all felonies. Those covered are listed in the act. Manslaughter is not one of them.
Price –
I see that you’re alive and well, and still living in Never Land, where you continue to entertain your amusing but otherwise delusional, “what if” scenarios…
First of all, malice was not proven, which is required for a finding of murder. I guess that means that the jury didn’t believe that the prosecution proved its case…
BTW – It isn’t over, ‘til it’s over…
So let’s say CPD attempts to take these drug dealers/ growers into custody outside of the home.
Would the general public be put at risk? It is now fact that some of the information given from the informant was true. I subscribe to the theory that your home is castle. I also believe that if you are involving yourself in criminal activities you can expect the police or your criminal kind to come for you. I do not want the police to attempt to take someone in custody two miles away from their house because they decided to run and elude. That would place my family in jeopordy and the citizens as a whole. If you do dirt, keep it in your house and stop hanging with people you can’t trust. RF was proud of his plants and show them off. Keep your personal weed personal!
May I state the obvious?
There seems to be a disconnect between the law enforcement community and the citizens for whom they are sworn to protect.
You authoritarians posting here aren’t doing anyone any favors.
Price, you giving any credibility to the professional witness that was called out by a Commonwealth Attorney as “unreliable” is very disappointing. You can argue your side without defending worthless witnesses. Defending the witness or any policy that lead to the use of that witness only stains your good arguements.
Let us assume that RF is guilty as sin. The FACT is the CPD screwed up. They could have easily taken RF on the way to work at their discretion. The manner in which RF was taken only added unnecessary risk and cost Shivers his life. How can you possibly justify that? The answer is that you can’t. Some internal change must occur or more people will unnecessarily die.
Personally, I think RF is guilty of manslaughter. I don’t agree with the sentence, though. I’m sorry Price but, your arguement that some unknown intruder busting through your door can not be read as imminent personal harm is shocking. Who do you hope to convince of that?
The fact is the CPD did not do everything they could have.
RF likely lost his head and fired in blind panic and had no idea it was a police action. What? He thought he had a chance against the CPD then changed his mind when asked to surrender? Why not continue the fire fight if he knew it was PD all along?
RF did not do everything he could have either, granted he isn’t professional trained as the CPD is.
No crystal ball was needed to peacefully apprehend RF. Surveillance and good police work was all it took. If you’re gonna try justifying uneccessary risk, you’re going to find fewer LE willing to follow you into the next building to be raided. Any LE officer deserves far better and so do their families.
If you really consider 1000 bloggers ( over estimate) as spokesmen and woman of the city, your wrong. Chesapeake population over 200,000. You have 1000 bloggers, subtract the name changes and the my way is the best way. WOW, your down to maybe 50 people. Oh, I forgot the ones that don’t live here. You all are right if the 25 of y’all get together and stroke your egos! You don’t represent the majority of anything! My fault, you have this blog.
Opinions,
Your arguement doesn’t hold. The CPD themselves did not consider RF much of a threat when the warrant was issued.
When given the opportunity to surrender……RF surrendered. At that point he knew the police were there.
If targets are known to be heavily armed and dangerous then of course you take them at an isolated area in order to protect the public.
Run and elude? In any circumstance where there was threat percieved or a run risk, you set a perimeter regardless of the location.
Let’s keep in mind what the warrant was for and the threat assessment that was determined at the time of the warrant. Nothing suggested RF to be dangerous.
Opinion, even those of us that don’t live in Chesapeake care that Shivers died. He was good man in a bad situation. He didn’t deserve to die and neither did his family deserve to lose him.
People are imperfect and make mistakes. That includes any PD. That includes RF. Nobody deserved to die.
The best that we can do is try to gaurd against this happening again. That is owed to Shivers, his family, the public, and other officers.
I in general stick up for Public Safety employees. They do noble jobs that I don’t want or can’t do. They serve to protect the individual citizen from ‘Force and Fraud’. They save lives and put out fires. They arrest murderers and rapists.
Almost everyone wants to be proud of what they do. Especially, Law Enforcement. I can only guess how they might feel a “black eye” has been given to their profession.
It doesn’t have to be meaningless. Future lives can be saved after this. Reputations can be rebuilt. I do believe in redemption.
I don’t want to be percieved as an enemy of the police. I support them.
No, I don’t live in Chesapeake. I am a Virginian. I am an American. I do care that Shivers died and his family lost him.
You’re right. This blog might not amount to much. We’re just Americans expressing our opinions on the internet. That’s all.
Common sense dictates that when you have a problem to solve, you try the least expensive / troublesome / time-consuming method, FIRST. In other words, if your car won’t start, you check the battery terminals for corrosion and ensure that the cables are tightened, before you decide to replace the starter…
The CPD had several options for serving this warrant; waiting outside for him to leave for work, waiting for him AT work, waiting for him to come home from work. All of these methods would have resulted in a “nobody dies” (least expensive) outcome.
Instead, 15 of them showed up, in classic storm-trooper style, heavily armed, executing a highly complex plan where each of them had their specific duty to perform, various code phrases to memorize, timing the front and rear entries so that they were simultaneous (which didn’t work out for them, because the gate to the back yard gave the rear-entry group trouble)…
All they managed to accomplish, with their “shock and awe” method, was frighten an American Citizen badly enough to provoke him to fight for his life – with a firearm – which cost a good man his life, widowed a good woman, and orphaned three children…
Looking at their operation, strictly from a tactical standpoint – because of how closely bunched up they were (“Nuts to butts! Make the man in front of you smile!”), in their “stack” (entry formation), one bad guy with an automatic weapon could have taken down the whole group with one 30 round clip – in other words, FUBAHRR (Fucked Up Beyond All Hope of Redemption or Repair)…
Anyone who thinks that the CPD was right and righteous in the method that THEY chose to employ, is too blind and stupid, to have an opinion…
I was just reminded that a young lady was killed in Richmond, Virginia in 1998 by a police swat team that was breaching the door to a residence. Cop fired “breaching rounds” from a shotgun through the door and killed an innocent visitor to the residence who was lying on top of her 3 year old trying to protect her. Cop charged with crime? Nope. In fact, cop was entitled to “Sovereign Immunity” and could only be sued if the jury believed that he was acting in a “grossly negligent” manner. Too bad Mr. Frederick couldn’t have enjoyed the same level of protection in his prosecution. From what I’ve heard his conduct could never have arisen to gross negligence, unless he knew it was the cops out there, and in that case what he did was intentional murder. Case was reported at Green v. Ingram, 269 Va. 281, 608 S.E.2d 917 (2005).
And if this had all happened 20 miles further to the south, RF’s actions would have been viewed through the lense of North Carolina’s Castle Doctrine, which allows
“any degree of force that the occupant reasonably believes is necessary, including deadly force, against an intruder to prevent a forcible entry into the home or residence or to terminate the intruder’s unlawful entry.”
John Wilburn,
What if you actually took the time read what I was asking. I stated I was not going to get into what if situations. Thank you Dr. Tabor for answering my question. Now I understand why RF “use of a firearm” charge was dismissed or found not guilty.
JW, I read your last post and you have some vaild points after I read through all the drama statements. There could have been a plan A, B or C. Hey, maybe when your car does not start, I bet you check the gas gauge first:)
Britt, as for the witness, I do give Wright, not that Skeeter joke, some creditabilty. I know you all say he was looking to get off on charges, he was paid, etc. Prior to all that he had personal knowledge that RF was growing marijuana,smoked marjiuana together, and RF had a gun, etc. I do not like or agree with the fact that Wright broke into RF’s garage and lied about it. If the police knew that Wright broke into the garage and obtained the warrant knowing that information then the officer needs to be held accountable, not the magistrate. The magistrate can only go with the sworn statements provided to them. People were so quick to believe RF,but he lied too and there is no denying that. RF is not a stone cold killer. What I am tired of hearing is that people think RF is some alter boy. There is plenty to blame on both sides.
Price –
I do apologize for confusing your, “how come” or, “why did” scenario, with a, “what if” (or “just suppose”) scenario…
I guess what frustrates me about you, after reading your posts over the last 12-odd months, is that you seem to have a talent for asking questions that have already been answered, or propose things that clearly did not or could not happen, and have already been debated or resolved…
The short version is that you seem to be always playing catch-up…
Price- Simply put and not meant to offend, your mind is locked and loaded.
No my mind is not locked and loaded I just simply refuse to drink your cool aid on either side. This board would be boring if everyone agreed on everything. RF is to blame to and the police need to rethink their tactics.
Price –
One other thing, and (hopefully) I’ll stop picking on you – you said “People are so quick to believe RF, but he lied too and there is no denying that.”
No, RF did not lie. The police asked him what he was growing in his garage (1st interview) and he said, “a banana tree.” At the point in time that the question was asked, all that was growing in his garage, was a banana tree. He told the truth.
The police asked him if he was growing marijuana in his garage (1st & 2nd interview) and he said “no.” At the point in time when the question was asked, he was not growing marijuana in his garage – he had discarded his remaining 3 plants (that the burglars had left) and put all of his equipment away, in the attic. He told the truth.
I realize that it appears that I’m splitting hairs here, but the fundamental truth is that he was under no obligation to answer questions that they weren’t smart enough to ask.
The fact is, RF was one of the most credible witnesses that testified (along with Dr. Kinnison, Mr. Fletcher, and Professor Cooke).
Steven R. Wright will probably end up as a state senator, if he can stay out of jail. He seems perfectly qualified for politics.
We should legalize prescription drugs too! If not we will be held hostage with bomb threats at the pharmacy by drug users. Such a victimless crime. When weed gets legalized we can wait for the next big thing.
Opinions do not matter anymore-
Please, now you’re just being silly. Please do some research on reduced harm policies, you’re obviously uninformed.
Will we ever hear from the Jury in this matter? Will we have to wait until sentencing? I’m curious to know their mindset. 10 years is off the chart for NO priors, They asked for both the audio interogation, and the video interogation. Those two pieces of evidence right there speak to a MUCH lesser sentence….Perhaps to time served.
You mean research on proposed reduced harm polices. I refuse to eat these vegetables. If the majority wanted these proposed policies we would have them. See you want it your way, this is not Burger King. We the people can be changed by the people. I guess the people forgot to go vote because we are all miniscule in this machine we are trapped in.
Drugs are a forbiden fruit, and as long they are bad things will happen…….I see what your saying.
I still like the idea of things the way they are. I’m not marchin to the beat of my drum, just the majorities. My sixth grade teacher once told me ” If, if and buts were candy and nuts, oh what a wonderful world this would be.”
Got to go now, time to go to bed, its almost 8.
Opinions do not matter anymore,
As the majority becomes better informed these laws and policies will change. The majority in 13 states have already opted for rational policies. Superstition and ignorance are the major obstacles in Virginia.
“I refuse to eat these vegetables.” You cherry pick only that which supports your opinion. No amount of evidence would change your mind?
I sincerely hope there are a lot of cops out there that dread the thought of breaking into a person’s home, because they think its wrong. I know there are cops who look forward to it, because they want to kill. What I mean by that is that there are those in LE who are there because they are murderous criminals and if they are a cop, they can play their game and not go to jail. I do not suggest any of the officers in this case fall into that category. I think that to deal with this reality effectively you have to go up onelevel, and have prosecutors who are mostly interested in what’s right, as opposed to “what office can I aspire to” or ” How many lives have I messed up” . We have bad people in positions of power. Lots of em. It’s not a few bad apples, it’s systemic. And I don’t like wordpress either.
heres the problem. LE thinks ” Perhaps he heard the 3 different officers announcing themselves and their intent to peacefully serve a search warrant?” With an assault plan and battering ram they were ready to “peacefully serve a search warrant?”
Dr tabor said
“Buy a freaking bull horn. Turn on the lights and sirens for 5 seconds to start the knock and announce sequence, and then wait a few minutes in case the occupant is in the john when you arrive. Phone the house if you know the number. The list of better ways to do this is long, and the valid excuses for not making sure do not exist.
25 seconds??
People in the private sector resist job pressures to do the wrong thing every day. You guys put them in jail if they don’t. And their lapses don’t result in dead people.
Are you really expecting us to accept the notion that putting people’s lives at risk to avoid pressure form the public is acceptable?
Buy a freaking bull horn.
They had one. They had no trouble with the bullhorn, lights, and sirens after Shivers was shot. The problem was that they didn’t really want Frederick to know there were cops outside his house, because if he’d let them in they’d have no excuse to force entry.
One problem attorneys face in jury trials is that some jurors will be turned off by any logical sequence that would lead to an unwelcome conclusion. If RF’s attorney only had to worry about proving his client’s innocence logically, there’d be a real simple argument: If the cops really believed that RF knew there were cops outside, why did they bother with the bullhorn and flashing lights after Shivers was shot? They used those things because they knew that RF wasn’t aware that there were cops outside.
Supercat- They used the lights and bull horn because as the suspect was in custody there was no reason to use armor but lights and bull horn they could get away with.
Thats restraint
RE: Appeal
Fridays paper “The voluntary-manslaughter verdict Wednesday in the shooting death of a Chesapeake police officer is unusual in Virginia, and it could lead to a precedent-setting appeal.”
Would it help or hurt the judge if she lowered the sentence? Would that lessen the likelihood of being overturned? Or would that make both sides even angrier?
WTF- a voice for comity? Or would that make both sides even angrier?
John,
Pick all you want, like I said before, I can debate both sides of this issue. You would be bored if everyone agreed with you. Very funny on the splitting the hairs statement. I would love for you to have presented that issue to the jury. Bottom line we all know he was growing marijuana, end of story. Someone else summed it up, you had two storms brewing. RF, growing, smoking, mixing pills with pot, paranoid because someone stole his pot. The police coming to the house, ramming the door and probably caused RF to shoot through the door. The two events really caused a shit storm.
Price – Would Mickey Mouse have grounds for divorce if Minnie was f***ing Goofy?
Yes, When Scooby Doo takes responsbility for his out of wed-lock child “Scrappy Doo” and stop calling your cocaine laced treats scooby snacks. They sure do give you power and energy.
Libel against a member of the law enforcement community? Sir, at long last have you no shame?
One comment I found disturbing. Did the person, who said it, not realize that prescription drugs ARE LEGAL? If not, they could not be prescribed! This type of blatant ignorance drives me crazy! Word use has to be more precise, in some instances. And, I can be the worst at using them improperly!
It also points out the inaccuracy of claiming cannabis is an illegal drug. It is and it isn’t, depending on where you live. What is definitely illegal, is the diversion of controlled drugs for use, unintended by the prescriber. Cannabinoids are both class one and class three, four, or five drugs. Is it no wonder we are confused?!
Here’s my 2 cents worth. If it had been a group of crack heads busting in the front door, Mr. Frederick could have fired his weapon over his shoulder, holding a mirror, wearing a blindfold, thru half a dozen doors killing at least 2 of them and there never would have been a trial! That’s the reality of it and every resonable person can’t deny it. The only reason he was charged was because it was a cop. Shameful! Chesapeake has a long history of abusive LE officers. Even their elected Sheriff was accused of gun whipping and attempting to sexually assualt a young African-American boy during the mid 70’s.
The ONLY reason Ryan was charged was because it was a COP that got killed. IF the tables had been turned, and Ryan had been the one that was killed…that would have been it!!!! End of story!!!…NO PUBLICITY!!!! NO TRIAL!!!!!NO COP going to jail / prison….WHAT’S WRONG with that picture??? There was an OUTSIDE investigation…WHAT was the outcome of that??? NO ONE knows because it was all done secretely. I guess there MUST have been some REAL BIG ‘COVER-UPS’ that must NEVER be made known….NO SURPRISE THERE!!!!! When anyone tried to contact the JURY members..NONE would talk…maybe, just maybe they are afraid of retaliation..(from the cops of course) because of the decision the Jury made…
Contd…. I REALLY think the Jury WANTED to Acquit Ryan….and they SHOULD HAVE!!!! BUT evidently they figured there COULD be HEAVY REPERCUSSIONS..That is TOTAL B.S….A cop WITHOUT his BADGE, GUN, and UNIFORM..is NO different than anyone else..the BADGE and GUN just add to their EGOS….
FREE RYAN FREDERICK!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Dr. T…
The point is that the cops don’t want to buy a bull horn and put the lights and siren on. They want suprise!!! No one wants to alert the target that there is an impending raid. What if the target wants to have a fight? Allowing him to get prepared means you endanger more of your people! Subterfuge is the way to go. An old friend, Agent Special K, FBI, had a bank robber he was working who did 50+ bank robberies in the far west. He finally tracked the dude down in Arizonia. Special K called the Special Agent in Charge and said that you better send your best team of agents out on the arrest, because the target had sworn to kill anyone who tried to arrest him, especially FBI agents. Did the FBI send it’s Swat team? NOT! The SAC sent out two absolutely hot women FBI agents who looked like Hooter’s girls. Dressed like Floozies. They approached the target’s house and told him they needed help finding an address. The dude came out side in his underwear, obviously not armed, one of the agents screwed her gun into the a..holes’ ear the other hand cuffed the dude. No strikes. No errors. No shootout. FBI works smarter not harder. CPD needs to hire some good looking police officers who can fool the a..holes.
Mr. Wong,
So you’re saying it is procedure to always force entry by surprise and never allow the citizen to accept the warrant peacefully? Then what’s the point of knocking and announcing at all?
The sad thing is you’re probably right, there is no intention of ever serving a warrant except by home invasion.
So you’re saying it is procedure to always force entry by surprise and never allow the citizen to accept the warrant peacefully? Then what’s the point of knocking and announcing at all?
In Mr. Wong’s scenario, the goal was to capture a particular person who was known to be dangerous. If the agents confirmed that the person who answered the door was indeed the robber, I see nothing wrong with their actions.
If the police wanted to use a similar tactic to conduct a search, they would distract the occupant of the dwelling while clearly-identifiable police made themselves apparent.
BTW, I wonder how the number of police shot by people without criminal records in situations compares with the number of such people shot by police? If one excludes police who were shot while conducting forced entries without bona fide efforts to first demonstrate their identity and legitimacy, I wonder how the totals would compare then?
Dr. T..
Remember my earlier post. There is a case that holds that “dope dealers” are presumed to be dangerous and armed. I can’t give you the cite. I just was in court one day and saw the rule applied by the judge. In the case I saw, the officer needed reasonable suspicion for the Terry Stop but once it was determined that the reason for the stop was dope dealing, the Virginia judge applied the rule that the officer could automatically pat down the suspect for officer safety because guns and drugs “go together” sort of like Rogers and Hammerstein. If the police were really scared and had a no knock warrant they could have thrown a flash bang in a side window as a diversion but they would have had to get prior authorization from the magistrate. As I read your trial notes and heard RF’s statements given before trial, I thought RF said he got up from bed because he heard knocking, but he said in response to a question, that the cops didn’t give him enough time to answer the door. The CPD didn’t proceed with the battering ram until someone shouted “8-Ball” which was the signal that their raid was somehow compromised. Admittedly , I wasn’t in the courtroom, your recollection is probably better. Thanks, by the way, for attending the trial and keep us chickens informed.
Jon Wong, it was already predetermined that Ryan Frederick wasn’t dangerous despite info that he grew pot and had a gun. The fact is he wasn’t dangerous. He was put in a situation where he became fearful of his safety and then made dangerous.
From what I’ve seen there was no evidence of “Drug Dealing” only use and manufacture. There was never enough evidence that the manufacture was to the point of implying dealing.
Ryan’s situation matches your known to be dangerous example in no way. Although, I do appreciate the smart thinking in catching the guy.
Frederick’s home could have been searched while he was at work. Officers could have picked him up going to, from, or at work if they needed to. Likely result would be a peaceful surrender. Kinda like when he DID know the PD was outside and surrender options WERE announced to him……he surrendered. He didn’t know the police were the ones busting in his door.
To argue otherwise is to say he thought he could take the CPD and changed his mind after killing Shivers and they ordered him to surrender. It doesn’t make sense.
As to the peaceful serving of the warrant, and suggesting surprise was needed doesn’t fit either. First he was one man not several known dangerous armed fugitives. Second, he surrenedered when they finally did announce and tell him to surrender. Third the assessment of Frederick was that he would not have been a safety risk. Fourth how much prep time for a war with a superior force do you get when a perimeter is already set up and you are one guy inside?
Your idea of flash bangs or even using tear gas while way overboard for this easy case is certainly preferable to what they did. If you MUST put a normally non-violent person in a situation where they mistakenly fear for their life, at least incapacite him to a degree and remove his opportunity to excercise deadly force.
As bad as it would be, flash bangs or tear gas flying into your house would at least be an indicator that some police action was under way and you should find a nice prone position to wait in.
Drugs are a forbiden fruit
And that sums up the mindset of those who believe in vice law. I’m sure this fine citizen believes in the validity of Virginia’s old anti-miscegenation law – even up to today, after all, because it wasn’t discarded by majority political will.
Just because a majority decides something does not make it unquestionably right. The War on Drugs is nothing but the old puritan fear of someone having fun. Must be a SIN!